Carlos Muñoz Jr. Oral History Interview

Amanda Belantara: Today I'm speaking with scholar, author, educator, and activist Dr. Carlos Muñoz Jr. The interview was conducted for Bibliopolítica, a digital history of the Chicano Studies Library. The interview took place in the Ethnic Studies Changemaker Podcast Studio at UC Berkeley on September 15th, recorded and engineered by Angelica Garcia. The interviewer is Amanda Belantara.

Amanda Belantara: Dr. Muñoz, thank you so much for being with us here today. Could you start off by telling us a bit about yourself, where you grew up, what you studied, and the kind of work you do?

Carlos Muñoz Jr.: I'd be happy to. I think my story starts with the Mexican Revolution of 1910. My family were very keen at revolution. My grandfather was one of the leaders of the revolution. And consequently during the revolution, a lot of people immigrated over here to the US to get away from the revolution. And in my case, they got the children together to save our lives. They sent us to the US to stay with relatives. And so I was a kid, you know, and I arrived in El Paso, Texas, and my life story started there with the Mexican Revolution. When you're young, you're not really sure what you're going to do for a career. And so you just go along with whatever comes up. And so that was my story that, you know, I didn't know what I was, what I wanted to do. I had just served in the US Army in the Far East. I was shipped back to the United States after ending my tour of duty. So I started thinking about the future at that time for the first time. So what am I going to do now? So I thought very seriously about making the military a career. I love the army. They had good food, you know, they fed you good. I had all the respect I needed to get, you know, became a leader in the military. But then, you know, things happened during the time I became aware of the reality of US imperialism, you know, and I became aware of how I had fallen into that. And I didn't agree. I disagreed with it. I came to disagree with it. And I made it very clear that I was not going to continue to serve in the military or the US. And so then I was punished. I was demoted and put into what was called house arrest. I became a persona non grata because I disagree with the objectives of US imperialism. So when I came out, what am I going to do now? You know, I cannot pursue a military career after all. So I said, well, you know, I'll just go to college. I'd never thought about going to college and was a high school graduate. And I said, well, you know, I got that GI Bill that pays your way through college, you know. So I did that. And in the process of studying for a BA, I became aware of the reality that I had not seen before. It was always there. What poverty results, you know, as a kid that grew up in poverty in El Paso, Segundo Barrio, and we moved to East LA and I continued to be in a situation where there was poverty. And I said, oh, I got to do something about this. This is no fun being poor, you know, being in poverty. I'm going to try to do something about it. And so I thought about it. So eventually, to make a long story short, I decided that I would, after military service, that I would go to college. And so I did. At the time when I was in college, I became an activist. I became a leader of a student movement or campus. And one thing led to another. In 1968 was the pivotal year for me. I became the president of the United Mexican American Students Organization that became MEChA eventually. We organized the protest in support of the students in high schools that were protesting racism in the schools. So make a long story short, those of us that were involved with the organizing of student protests were indicted for conspiracy to disturb the LA City Schools system, which was true. So we were all facing prison terms. And in my case, I was facing 66 years in prison for the "crime" of organizing student protests against racism in the public schools I used to LA. And so there I was, you know, and I was thrown into a cell with real criminals. And they couldn't figure out, my cellmates couldn't figure out what I was doing there. So they thought I was an undercover cop that was just thrown in there to get the goods on them. And I had to defend myself a couple of times physically. And to make clear that I was not a cop, you know, I wasn't undercover. I was one of them. So finally, I was able to relax a little bit. I didn't have to worry about defending myself anymore. And I started thinking very seriously about what I might want to do when I get out of prison here. And so I said, well, 66 years is a long time. You know, I might not last that long. But so that's what I planned to do. I got out of prison. I'm going to get out there and organize a revolution, you know, to change things, you know, I might try to fight for the right to establish a true democracy in this country. Because I mean, it can't be a democracy if here I am a veteran having served the US Army and having served my country and wind up in the situation. I mean, that's not fair. And so I decided to do something about it.

Amanda Belantara: And what year was it that you came to Berkeley?

Carlos Muñoz Jr.: 1972, I believe. 1972.

Amanda Belantara: So how was it that you first heard about or came upon the Chicano Studies Library?

Carlos Muñoz Jr.: Oh, boy. Well, you know, I was I've always been very respectful of the library because I was a researcher. That was a very key place for me to get to know. And so when I was recruited to come up after I finished my PhD, I was recruited to come up to Berkeley to take over the department. And when I did that, I came up and I realized that students were the ones who ran the library. Nothing but students, you know. And you know, as a side note, the person that was to become my wife worked in the library. So you know, apart from falling in love with her, I mean, I was lucky she fell in love with me too. So we eventually got married, but I stayed at Berkeley to become the to stay as the Chair of Chicano Studies at Berkeley. And I decided at that time that the librarians were not treated well. So since I was the coordinator, I decided to fight for the librarians to become "professional." And Richard Chabrán at that time was the head of the library as a student. And so I made it possible for him to become a professional librarian. It was commanding the salary of a professional person, you know. I became very supportive of our library. I told Richard, I think, as I remember, "Anything you need, as long as I'm Chair, you'll get it. Just let me know." And so that's how it started. As one who was in the process of contributing to the building of Chicano Studies throughout the system, I realized the librarian was key. We needed to have a library, or any library that would become useful to our endeavor. Those of us that were scholars needed to make the library and library staff a professional in the context that we see the support that the university just had for them, the resources they were not getting, you know, because they were students running. So that's one thing that I did. I'm happy to do that, that I was able to make possible the professionalizing of our library.

Amanda Belantara: And so you mentioned that you came upon the library and you noticed the student workers. When you entered the library, what was it like? Can you kind of paint a picture for me? What was going on in there? Can you help us kind of imagine the scene?

Carlos Muñoz Jr.: Yeah, well, the librarians were all students at the time, you know. There was no professional librarian in charge. Richard Chabrán was in charge, but he was also a student. My wife worked there as a student and other young men and women who worked there.

Carlos Muñoz Jr.: Can you talk a little bit more about why the library was needed? Any kind of academic department could not grow with a library. The library was central to our endeavors to establish whatever academic enterprise we were involved with, you know. The scholars and researchers were very obvious to me that we needed to have the kinds of resources available and that would be a house in the library, you know. So that's what I did.

Amanda Belantara: And were you involved at all in working with the staff to help select or acquire different items?

Carlos Muñoz Jr.: I was indirectly involved. I mean, I was consulted by the librarian, Lily. I was consulted by her and so she told me what she needed. And I did the best to get those resources that she needed for the library. Speaking again about some of the collections, were there any particular collections that you were especially happy to have access to via the library? I was happy to have all those collections that she had. Whatever she needed and she wanted, I supported. That was good. That was good because, you know, as a scholar, you want to have available resources that you need, you know. And oftentimes, you don't know exactly what you need. So we have a librarian who knows the situation. She or he can get the resources that we need.

Amanda Belantara: And could you talk a little bit about the library as a place? A place to be, a place to hang out?

Carlos Muñoz Jr.: Oh yeah. Well, the library, in our case, not all libraries or librarians do this, but in our case, the library became a home for the students in a sense, you know, for having student meetings there that had to do with important stuff, you know, that they had to do as a collective student body or whatever.

Amanda Belantara: And I understand that your papers are housed in the library.

Carlos Muñoz Jr.: Yes, yes. My, I have a collection in the library. And so I still continue to donate or to, you know, put stuff that I no longer need to work with in the library and collection, my collection that is there to be used for other scholars that would benefit from what information I have.

Amanda Belantara: And what made you select this library, the Chicano Studies Library at UC Berkeley? You could have selected so many other libraries.

Carlos Muñoz Jr.: Oh, no, no. I mean, I would never think of another library. You know, our library is very key in my mind that we continue to make sure they get the support they need and the resources they need to continue to be a very important institution for the faculty in Ethnic Studies as a whole, not just Chicano Studies, but Ethnic Studies.

Amanda Belantara: And so is there anything else that you might like to add any memories or stories of the library or your experience of it?

Carlos Muñoz Jr.: I think the main thing is that the library has been key, key support for the scholars in the department, not just Chicano Studies, but ethnic studies as a whole and other scholars on campus. And the appointments as well, I might add, a very useful place for them to get to get research done.

Amanda Belantara: Lily or Richard, are there any other questions that you have?

Richard Chabrán: Carlos, I wanted to say that, you know, beyond, you know, your work as a professor and as a scholar, that you were always like really part of the soul of Chicano Studies. And I really always appreciated that. And I want to say thank you for all of that because that remains with me. I did have one thing. Do you remember the time? I think it was in Wheeler Hall and we invited Ernesto Galarza to come and speak and you introduced him. Do you remember anything about that?

Carlos Muñoz Jr.: Sure. You know, I have a wonderful memory of it, very historically, you know, and unbeknownst to us at that time, he wasn't going to last for much longer. He was already, you know, much older and he was ill. He himself told me, I'll never forget, "Carlos," he said, "you know, if I can be of help, let me know because I won't be around much longer." And I told him we became friends, you know, good friends. And I told him, "Don't say that, don't put it that way. You're going to live a long time." But you're right. And we all eventually go to the spirit world. And so definitely I'm going to take you up on that. I would love to invite you over and meet with the librarians and see what you can do to be helpful to them before you and I pass on to the spirit world.

Richard Chabrán: You were like a bridge between those generations. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Carlos Muñoz Jr.: Yeah, I enjoyed that particular role to play. Thank you again. Thank you.